Best Dam Podcast Exclusive: Inside the Data Center Debate - Part II with Brynn deLorimier , Kendra Dyson, and Fred Voltz - In this episode of The Best Dam Podcast, Jill sits down with Boulder City advocates and local community members Brynn deLorimier, Kendra Dyson, and Fred Voltz to pull back the curtain on a massive, fast-tracked tech proposal. Together, they break down the critical issues surrounding a proposed 300-megawatt data center and explain why 93% of surveyed residents are firmly opposed to its development.

The guests explore the deep financial, infrastructural, and environmental risks associated with the project—ranging from doubled utility bills seen in other rural American towns to the toxic chemicals needed to run massive industrial cooling systems. With a strict timeline advancing toward a final city council decision, this episode provides a vital, detailed look at the public pushback, the discrepancies in the developer's application, and how local citizens can use their voices to protect Boulder City's precious natural resources.

DISCUSSION

• The Swift Public Pushback: When the data center option was presented at a city council meeting to bridge a budget shortfall, local social media pushback was immediate and vehemently opposed.
  
  
• A Warning from Rural America: Brynn shares that her mother’s utility bills doubled in rural North Carolina after a data center was implemented in her small town.
  
  
• Lessons from Local History: Kendra recalls growing up in downtown Henderson and details why trusting corporate promises can lead to long-term health and environmental damage, such as contaminated soil and air.
  
  
• The Two Ballot "Boxes": The discussion clarifies that the immediate Townsite Solar lease amendment is moving forward at warp speed independently of the future data center restriction question on the November ballot.
  
  
• Developer Red Flags: Proponents of the project are investment-type professionals with zero actual experience running an operational data center, creating a lack of public confidence.
  
  
• City Spending vs. Income: Fred emphasizes that the city has a spending problem rather than an income problem, highlighting multi-million dollar outlays on an elaborate swimming pool and a railroad museum.
  
  
• Grid and Spot Market Competition: A 300-megawatt data center would directly compete with Boulder City’s 55-megawatt peak summer load on the wholesale power spot market, potentially skyrocketing local utility rates.
  
  
• The Hoover Dam Trap: Under federal agreements, Boulder City ratepayers remain on the hook for dam operations and maintenance costs even if Colorado River water levels decline and power production stops.
  
  
• Application Inconsistencies: The developer's proposal contains severe mathematical errors and explicitly lists banned evaporative cooling methods across multiple pages of the planning commission agenda packet.
  
  
• A Toxic Chemical Brew: Running the proposed closed-loop cooling system requires hundreds of thousands of gallons of water mixed with rust inhibitors, propylene glycol, and other hazardous compounds.
  
  
• Demanding Performance Bonds: Due to the environmental risks of wastewater remediation and the potential for corporate bankruptcy, residents are calling for massive performance bonds.
  
  
• Citizens Initiative Petitions: Community members are actively gathering 1,700 local signatures by June 25th for three citizens' initiatives focused on restoring fiscal responsibility and public oversight.

LEARN MORE

• Boulder City Power Sources: Google the official "Power Source" page on bcnv.org to see the monthly breakdown of where the city buys its wholesale energy.
• Water Conservation and the Colorado River: Read up on current Colorado River shortages and drought forecasts by checking out the recent interviews published by the Glen Canyon Institute.
• Boulder City Citizens Initiative: Reach out to local organizers Brynn, Fred, or Kendra to find out where to sign the three fiscal responsibility petitions before the June 25th deadline.
• Closed-Loop Cooling System Discharges: This resource provides a brief explanation of Closed-Loop Cooling System Dischardges - https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fp0shgbge685jzg830ueh/Closed-Loop-Cooling-System-Discharges.pdf?rlkey=ugvfu1ls4bsjtdnzetviwyu3c&st=k1efv53c&dl=0
• Linktr.ee to NO Data Center in BC Resources - https://linktr.ee/nodatacentersbc

KEYWORDS

Brynn deLorimier, Kendra Dyson, Fred Voltz, Data Centers, Boulder City, The Best Dam Podcast, Townsite Solar, Colorado River, Water Conservation, Wholesale Power, Spot Market, Environmental Impact Assessment, Budget Shortfall, Citizens Initiative

#TheBestDamPodcast #BoulderCity #DataCenterDebate #ColoradoRiver #WaterConservation #SmallTownAmerica #FiscalResponsibility #CommunityVoice

Podcast Transcript

Jill: All right, so today we are answering questions. We're talking about key and important issues, and I am grateful to be surrounded by some wonderful people who really know what they're talking about. First of all, we have Ms. Kendra Dyson, we have Mr. Fred Voltz, and Ms. Brynn deLorimier. And I am really grateful that you guys are all here and taking the time to express this information to us, because I truly believe that we need to make sure that we're communicating and giving everybody the information that they need to make a informed and educated decisions.

So thank you guys for being here and taking the time. So I think we'll just kinda start off with, some questions just so we can understand a little bit more about the efforts that you guys have been putting forth. there has been a lot of discussion, a lot of conversation, and this is the perfect time for us to culminate that and get all of this information in one place so people can make that educated choice. So how do Boulder city residents generally think about data centers locating here, Brynn?

Brynn: The pushback I got when I first heard that we were considering a data center, that was at the January 27th City Council meeting when finance had done a presentation on a budget shortfall, that was one of the options presented to bridge that gap.

I brought it back to social media, and the pushback was swift and, and vehement from the community. I had just heard from multiple people, "No, we don't want this." And, that was my initial thought as well. it's not my background per se, it's, my ex-husband's background. We moved here from San Francisco, by way of Texas.

But, he worked in precisely that industry. So I have a little bit of familiarity with it, just looking over his shoulder. was not a fan of what I saw there, which was from Silicon Valley preying on small towns.

And now living in one Seeing it being preyed upon and actually a couple months later, reading the agenda packet from an applicant.

And seeing how badly they're preyed upon, I just couldn't be more opposed. And in addition to that, my mother also lives in rural North Carolina.

Jill: Oh, okay.

Brynn: And I'll just say our politics couldn't be more different. And I'll say this is one thing that has actually brought us together.

Jill: Oh, interesting.

Brynn: Yeah. she says, about six months ago, her utility bills doubled.

And her town has absolutely. The, it's already been implemented there. The data center's already been built. They've seen the effects on it on their rural community, and it's just been bad on all fronts there. I can say it's something that they've been against.

I started researching other small towns in America. I cannot find a single one whose residents say, "Government, thank you so much for bringing a data center to our small town." 

So That's

Jill: Almost laughable.

Brynn: Yeah. Until I can find one, we've studied the for this applicant, we've studied the actual financial implications, what revenue it would bring to our city.

It's a 90-year proposal increasing two percent over year over year. The environmental impacts are pretty vast, pretty great, for us. The electricity that it would use is enormous. Just I'll let everybody else speak to that.

Jill: Got it. Yeah.

Brynn: But just it's a lot. It was a lot to take in all at once, and just the speed at which it came at us slapped us all in the face.

Jill: And so you, in a short amount of time, have really had to educate yourself on this, and you have shared already, one specific, example, but I would imagine you probably have more at your fingertips to reference if we need it.

Brynn: Plenty. Yeah. We haven't done much eating or sleeping in the last, several months, 

Jill: Oh, interesting. 

Brynn: Yeah. 

Jill: Well, I appreciate that perspective. So Kendra, will you share a little bit more? I know you have, some personal experience living near a data center in the past, and so will you or I guess other plants in Henderson, correct? And so will you share a little bit more about your concerns on the environmental side and what your personal experience has been?

Kendra: Absolutely. And just to real quick add onto what she said, I did release a poll onto the Facebook group for Boulder City, and I said, "If you could vote today, yes or no on a data center, what would you vote?" about 200 people responded, and it was 93% no.

And so I think that speaks very, clearly as to the public sentiment.

And I would agree on both sides of the political spectrum, it's funny. There's, this is one thing that is uniting everybody. but as to myself, I grew up in downtown Henderson during the '80s and '90s. we lived near the town site. And if anybody knows the history of the town site, there used to be a joke that there was a cloud over Henderson.

And for years, the plants over there right off of Lake Mead used to deny that they were really releasing chemicals into the air. And for years, every single night as a child during specific seasons, I would cough for hours every night. They I can have memories of my parents running me to the 7-Eleven down the street to get me a Slurpee because cold things are one of the few things that would actually stop it.

In 1988, the year the PEPCON blew up, we moved up the hill, and I stopped coughing and never had it repeated ever since that day.

And we now know that Cadence, if you were to move over there, there is chemicals in the soil that have contaminated to the point that they are not allowed to grow vegetables or plant food trees in that soil.

And that is just, gosh, a 12-minute drive from here. We have a real-life example of what happens when we trust an industry and we take them at their word. And I think if we look back over the course of the last hundred and f- And the Industrial Revolution and technology. anytime somebody says, "Trust me," you probably shouldn't trust them.

And I feel like that's what we're being sold with data centers. They're saying, "Trust us. We have technology, and da. We will take care of it. You don't need to worry." And I think that there are clear examples, hundreds and hundreds of examples, of small communities who took a big corporation or a big manufacturer at their word, and have suffered very long-term, life-threatening sometimes, consequences, and I don't want that to become us.

I don't want my children to suffer the consequences of the things that I suffered as a child.

And so for me, I think it just doesn't feel like the right fit Boulder City can decide what it wants to be, and I feel like we as the people should get to have a voice in this.

Jill: I agree. So Fred, will you share a little bit with us about, has the city and the promoters engaged with the community?

Do you feel like there's been enough communication from the source?

Fred: There are two sources. There's the city, and then there are the project proponents, and I think both of them have failed us. Let me explain why I've come to that conclusion. the conversation was had out of public view starting last summer, and this is coming from the project proponents, with the city officials about this whole project.

We knew nothing about it really in detail until the March 24 city council meeting. but it was presented almost as though it was all wrapped up in ribbons. The city officials, the employees, including the city manager, assistant city manager, and others were all touting the virtues of this project, which is really not their role.

They're supposed to remain very neutral. the proponents created two supposed workshops for the public to attend. Instead of having sort of an auditorium style audience and them sitting up on the dais answering questions so everybody gets to hear the same questions and the same answers, they twice have put one or two people at an easel scattered in a room, and people were supposed to go around and see what they were talking about and maybe answer some questions, but they wouldn't get to hear what other people were a-answering and asking.

And this was brought up to them the day of the second session. we'll try and do this sometime in the future." That's not really good enough. they're pushing this forward tonight. Today is May twentieth. They wanna try and get this on the approval... beginning the approval process with the planning commission, and there is no buy-in from this community at all.

In fact, at that March twenty-fourth meeting when they were talking about, ballot questions that the city council wanted to put forward, they put forward a question about the data center. But they specifically excluded this project from that November vote. And there was no explanation given why that was the case, just that we don't care what the public says, we're gonna go ahead with this and exclude it. We're gonna give you this voice, but it doesn't count toward this project, and that's not right.

Jill: Help me better understand this. So

Fred: Yes 

Jill: Because the Townsite, so Townsite Solar/Schuyler, they were looking to amend a lease that they already had for battery storage, which that's I wanna talk about that environmental concern.

Fred: And solar farms.

Jill: And solar farms, yes. And so that was already the original,

Fred: That was the plan that they were going to put on this 88 and a half acres of city land that they planned to lease from the city and its taxpayers.

Jill: And so they just had a lease option. They did not have an actual contract or lease.

Fred: That's right. It hadn't gotten to that point yet.

Jill: And so they were looking to amend that to change from battery storage to data center.

Okay. So in that amendment, so I guess I'm seeing this in two boxes. I see this as that box, and then I see the box about the future stuff that I feel like we vote on that happens all the way down the rest of the area because they need to diversify the lease options.

Okay. so in these two different boxes It feels like there's, we have the public has the ability to talk about it in the hearings leading up to potentially lease options, right?

And then the vote is for future consideration, just don't do it at all. Don't even talk about this independent company, right?

So this is for the, this box, sorry, I know nobody can see my hands except you guys, but so in this box, it's for the future, don't even have this discussion, and we're gonna vote on this as a group, and we're, however that vote goes. But this box over here, the thing that concerns me is we need to make sure people understand that it is separate and independent.

Now, why they chose to do that, I don't know, and that's your, that's the question you just posed. But I think people need to make sure that they realize that their voice is gonna be really important to make sure that in this component, because the vote in November is a completely different voice than the vote now.

Fred: That's correct

 Yeah.

Jill: So we need to make sure people understand that.

Fred: But the question really comes back to if our representatives are really representing us and our wishes, which is what they ostensibly are trying to do, why would they exclude that from that vote? And what's the rush of pushing this project through, which is definitely the way the city is handling it compared to other issues that they undertake?

Jill: Yeah, and I don't know. I just wanna make sure that the people know that they need to have a voice twice.

Kendra: Yes.

Jill: Don't just think you're gonna wait around till November, and then I'm gonna express my voice. They need to be understanding that they need to be vocal.

Fred: And here's a problem with that, Jill, that really concerns me.

13 people got up at a council meeting and expressed their opposition, and one of the council members, I won't name names, but he knows who he is, said, this doesn't represent public opinion." how could he possibly come to that conclusion?

I don't know either. It stumps me that an elected official would just brush away public comment like that and not be at all concerned that

Jill: Yeah

Fred: There is definitely a movement in this town not to want this, and just

Jill: Yeah 

Fred: pretend as though it doesn't exist.

Jill: Interesting.

Fred: And it's very tragic for democracy and a deliberative process. And I'll say this, too. We in the public can make public comment till the cows come home, but we never get any answers to any questions, and there's no workshop conducted by even a couple of the city council people or the staff to address this.

And so we can object all we want, but we never get these answers, and the same way with the proponents of the project. I went to one of the key principals at one of the workshops and said, "What is your plan for remediating the toxic waste that you're going to have to dispose of from this closed-loop cooling system that you're saying you're going to go with?"

And he said, "Oh, we've got it covered. We're gonna cover, that with whatever the feds and the state require." that doesn't say what is your process for doing this? Is it going to be effective? Because when you look at the website for these proponents, they have zero goose egg experience running an actual data center.

Brynn: This will be their first. 

Fred: They do not know anything. They have one center that is going to open in Texas in December, so they claim. They have two others that are probably farther behind than the one they wanna build here. But these folks are money investment-type people. They are not data center operators, and so they have no track record that we can go to and say, "These people are good, upstanding operators."

And that should be concerning to Boulder City. Even if they know how to run a solar farm, it's very different running a data center because that's very passive.

Kendra: At the end of the day, whenever you have, They're an investment. they work in investments. And when it comes down to investments and then the question for them is, do we choose profits or do we choose people?

I think we can all understand they're gonna choose profits over people, and it's very I think we should ask hard questions. This is an investment corporation. This is not a tech company, doing this, and so their bottom line is what matters most to them, not us, and I think there's a lot of concerns many of us have.

I'm also concerned that the city has now created a website, to answer questions about a data center. Can we think of the last time they created a website,

Fred: The swimming pool 

Kendra: About no, about a private business, though, 'cause this is a private business, and that is what this is.

Brynn: They've used the mayor's desk column in the Boulder City Review to advertise for this company. 

Kendra: which is and that's concerning. It is. That we're using a public, the website for the city- ... is for the city, and it should be about the rec center and street closures and upgrades to our utility services. I can't think of the last time I've seen a city create a website touting the praises of a private business.

You know they don't do that for restaurants. They don't do that for any other entity that wants to come Retail stores, retail stores. And so this is a big question.

Brynn: Can I speak a bit to the the difference between the current proposal on the table and the November vote?

Jill: Yes, please.

Brynn: When they did state, when that council member did state 13 public commenters at the March 24th meeting were not enough, that is actually what prompted me to start the change.org petition to find out how many constituents' voices were enough.

So as of right now, we have 5,904 signatures. and I was told last time I talked to another council member, I asked how many signatures will be enough. Now, not all of those are Boulderites, because a change.org petition can go all over, but as the organizer, I can download the file and see from which ZIP code each and every one of those signatures have come from.

I've told the city anytime they wanna see the statistics, you can get in touch with me. I will download them. I will send you exactly how many came from Boulder City, and I'm happy to do so anytime. I haven't downloaded them in about six weeks now, so I can't give you an accurate figure right here, but I'm happy to do it.

Any of them can get in touch with me. But one council member told me when I asked, "How many will it take?" She said, "No amount. I'm going to wait till the November election." And I said, "This is not for the ballot question. This is for the current proposal that's moving forward at warp speed."

It'll be under construction by Q3, which is well before the November election. And she says, oh So

that is one reason

Jill: So I have a question about that though, Brynn. 

Brynn: Yeah. 

Jill: How can that possibly be? Because in the way that we have to and you guys need to educate me, but it seems like to me that you said planning commission tonight.

Brynn: Yep.

Jill: So if they make a decision tonight, then that's just to advance to city council.

Brynn: Yeah.

Jill: So then it still has to be agendized and advanced, so that won't be till like next month's city council. So now we're June.

Brynn: It will go to the, I'll tell you in one second here.

It'll go on the June- 20th ... 26th city coun- no, I'm looking at May. I'm sorry. It'll go on the June, 1, 2, 3, 4, June 23rd. Second meeting in June. June 23rd city council meeting. 

Jill: Okay, so June 23rd, and then

Brynn: And that's the final approval in the land management process, which I think is just a fancy word for rezoning. Am I correct in that? 

Fred: That's right.

Jill: No, rezoning is next. I did ask that question. 

Brynn: Okay. Okay. 

Jill: 'Cause this still has to be rezoned.  The reason I asked about rezoning is because rezoning changes things, right? So land management, there are like a bazillion things that go on land management and never get, never happen.

So I never stressed about land management before, but the zoning is where I think is key and important, right? But what I learned about the rezoning is, why these people put all this information out, I'm not exactly sure. Because in the rezoning, they it then has to go out for an appraisal and then for bid.

So now this project would still have to go out to bid, from my understanding

Fred: They've already secured for a public bid two appraisals, the city has, for what the, they're not selling the land, they're leasing it.

Jill: Yeah.

Fred: So they've come up with a dollar amount of land lease per acre.

And but here's the thing to know about the planning commission.

They can advise, they have no policy-making authority. So the city c- council can completely-

Jill: Deny 

Fred: Do a 180-degree turn, whatever they might agree to or not agree to tonight. Got it. So that's important.

Jill: Got it. So, so that's the June 23rd thing. That could be denied, approved.

Fred: Whatever.

Brynn: Okay. At this point, all... we've talked to, at least I've talked to all the council members, or somebody has talked to all the council members. Nobody has reversed their position. No. So we can assume it'll be another unanimous vote, regardless of what the planning commission decides.

Fred: That's right 

Brynn: tonight.

Jill: Okay. All right. So let's just say J- I'm sorry, Kendra.

Kendra: Oh, I was gonna say,I think what's so infuriating as I continue to listen to this and what I continue to feel, and I think so many people feel, is that why the rush? Like, why not give the people a a voice? Why not wait till November, see how we vote, and then make a decision?

Like, why do we have to hurry? It feels so frustrating as a town to know that so many, cities have been negatively impacted. If you look up in Oregon, they poisoned the groundwater with the same cooling system they want to use here, and they had to pay out to the city and to the people who live there.

This could deeply impact our city. It could impact our real estate values, it could impact our utility, costs, it could potentially very deeply harm our city. Why not wait? And that is my question. I think that is the one that was infuriating part of this process. Wait till November, see how we vote.

If we all vote no, then vote no, and if we vote yes. And I just feel like the people deserve a voice, and that's being denied us. they had workshops about leash laws, but they won't have a workshop about, whether or not we could put something that could that could actually damage our city.

And they won't even ask that. Just sit down and talk to people. Listen. Invite public commentary.

Jill: I do like the workshop concept, and it seems like it's, worked in the past. I'm sorry I'm hung up on the timeline, but I'm actually thinking that Okay, so if it has to go to a zoning change and amendment of the zone, and then it does have to go out for,

And so Fred, you're already saying that they have appraisals, but that's not really the process in a zone. they have to go out for appraisals at that point. So maybe I'm thinking it's gonna take longer, but if they already have, something in place, is it current? Who knows? And so then the next question, though, is if it goes out to bid, other people could bid on this concept, and then does Townsite Solar have to give up its lease option for that property, and it goes out to bid and other people could try to come in for it?

Fred: They have a right to develop a solar farm and a battery electric storage system 

Jill: Okay

Fred: Currently.

Jill: Okay.

Fred: So what they're trying to do is change what they can put on that property. Hence the zoning change. But one of the reasons that there's such a rush for this, and city staff are very subliminally supporting this in their comments, is that we've been told that we have this huge f- looming financial crisis, and that was all laid out at one of the council meetings.

As we've talked about in our group, it's not a, an income problem that the city has. It is a spending problem. We spend $75 million a year between our operating and capital budgets to support 15,000 people.

Jill: Okay.

Fred: So it works out to about $5,000 a person if you do the division.

Jill: Yeah.

Fred: But we spend money on an incredible array of things that are not needs but wants and nice-to-haves.

And yes, we need a new swimming pool because the original one was poorly built and poorly maintained for over 40 years, and that's tragic. It should have been done better in the building and the operating, but that's our reality. What do we need? We have 120 people or so a day, according to the Parks and Recreation statistics, using the existing pools.

instead of building just a simple pool, multipurpose, we're trying to build, two pools that are very elaborate and, because of inflation, are going to cost us probably about $50 million. For a town of 15,000 people to benefit 120 people, there has been no discussion about dialing that back to something more affordable and not diverting money from our capital improvement fund and from various other areas that the city has been doing, taking all the money from the Toll Brothers land sales around the Boulder Creek Golf Course and shoveling it into this project.

And again, we need a new pool. I don't think anybody disputes that in the community, but we don't need an elaborate pool. And we have Black Mountain and Henderson, if we have swim competitions or whatever, 15 minutes away, that could suffice for something that is more competition-oriented. we're just not doing that.

We're spending $35 million on a railroad museum of public money.

Jill: Now, you're getting into my bailiwick and I love that museum, so you better be nice.

Fred: I'm just being practical.

Jill: Okay.

Fred: So

Jill: I'll let you be practical, but just know that my heart and soul is in that.

Fred: and I'm sure there are many other people who have said that, but here's the reality.

Is that really going to bring $35 million of benefit to Boulder City?

Jill: Yeah.

Fred: When you're spending somebody else's money, you have a fiduciary duty to be responsible. And sure, we could expand that, could have expanded that museum. It's about ready to open. And yes, I'm sure it'll bring some people to town.

It looks very nice. It was a blank corner before. Now we have something there that is attractive, but that's a powerful amount of money, even in our inflationary times, of other people's money to be spending. And yes, we got it from the state, but it's all taxpayer money when you get down to it. Yeah. we have to balance what we want with what we need.

We do that in our own families, but it seems like public officials don't heed to that. They are all, doesn't matter what their politics are, they love to spend other people's money. And they don't respect the fact that there have to be limits, which is why we're $40 trillion in debt at the federal level officially and a lot more than we know beyond that.

Jill: Yeah. I don't want you to come to my house and teach my husband, 'cause I like having wants and All wants are needs in my world.

Brynn: The thing is, however you choose to spend your money privately, that is your business, and that is your right. But again, when you're spending somebody else's money, you have to be a little more cautious, and I just have not seen that in the public world generally, not just Boulder City.

to that note, Fred, my neighbor had a really great anecdote for this, and he said, I run my household in the black, but every now and then, there's a month where we're in the red. And when that happens, I don't-" rent out a portion of my front yard, I tighten my belt for that month until I make up the difference.

So I see this whole proposal as a it's a really good analogy. We could just tighten our spending, budget a little better, look at where there's waste, and maybe not have gotten ourselves into this situation in the first place.

Fred: Here's another great example. I'll be quick. The fire chief, that we have presently, has many plans for the city.

One of the things he wants to do is hire three new raw recruits, no experience. It is going to cost city taxpayers $203,000 a year That is a lot of money. Now, they explained it. We're paying about a third more than Las Vegas in our base salary. So much, I think 60% of the salary has to go into PERS contribution for retirement.

They have to be outfitted with all of this equipment. Okay, so you can say, "Here are the pieces of the $203,000," but that is a lot of money, and most of what our fire department does is emergency management services. So somebody falls, have a... has a heart attack, what have you, the fire department EMS crew responds.

And then- we want that service in this community. There's another way of providing it though, and that is let's bring in rather than hiring these people, let's bring in, one of the private services in Las Vegas or Henderson to run that for us, freeing up the firefighters to be available for EMS calls, but also to fight fires- when they need to. Because one of the problems we have with the dialing back of services at our local hospital is that those firefighters spend a tremendous amount of time transporting people to other hospitals in the Las Vegas Valley, and they have to wait, and it they're not here to serve somebody else who might have a need.

So better if we had somebody in the private world doing that, probably costing less than $200,000 a person, who would be available 24/7, would have a base here in Boulder City, and still provide the service, but at less cost.

Jill: And outsource.

Kendra: Yeah.

Fred: In a way, yes.

Kendra: And in fact, there's actually, on my street, there's an EMS company that rents an apartment, right now and has one here in Boulder City, and so that's a really reasonable thing.

They don't... I don't know that they take calls, but every single day I see an ambulance sitting there. And I see them going up to the apartment and coming down, and so that's a really reasonable thing, I think, for us to ask. I think there's a lot of ways to cut back, or to increase revenue, but again, I think sometimes we have to ask the question, what are we willing to risk?

I'd said earlier Erin Brockovich has taken on data centers, and in her movie she says, "How much is your spine worth?" And I would say to us, there's a lot of evidence that there are some very big concerns about the chemicals being released into the groundwater, about the warming that takes place around these data centers, about potential pollution in the air due to the generators, and I would say, how much are our lungs worth?

Are they worth $2 million a year? I don't think they are. And that's just my opinion on this matter, but I think it resonates with a lot of people, because 

Brynn: The health insurance companies probably don't think so either.

Kendra: No. Unfortunately. And if you don't have great health insurance

Jill: A whole another component.

So one of the questions that I know Brynn has brought up quite a bit has been, that I've talked with you about, has been the electric rates. Do you want to look at that? Has been the electric rates. And so can you kinda share a little bit about your takeaway, what you have, researched, what you're finding out from your other locations?

Bow could this potentially impact or affect electric rates for Boulder City's current residents?

Brynn: So I can't speak directly to our current electric rates. I know where my mother's lived, she has cited that hers went up double as a direct result. I know that when reading our, initial, March 24th City Council agenda they, the applicant states they will be sourcing power, which even though they're a solar company, they'll be sourcing power for their, at phase one, 167 megawatt, and at phase two, 300 megawatt continuously run data center from Silver State Energy, from Skylar, which is them, and they have very vaguely listed other entities.

Brynn: When I talked to them at the April 7th town hall, Rick Lammers of Skylar rattled off a list of seven to eight companies. I asked him, "Why not just list those, to appease everybody's concerns that we're gonna be competing with you on the grid?" And I think, isn't Silver State Energy where we also source ours from?

Fred: Yes.

Brynn: Okay. So will we then be competing with them on the wholesale market?

Fred: It's worse than that in a way, the way I'm understanding it. So yes, Boulder City gets their electricity through Silver State.

Brynn: Okay.

Fred: They buy it from WAPA-

Brynn: Yeah 

Fred: Which is the Western Area Power Authority.

And WAPA gets it from places such as Glen Canyon Dam, Hoover Dam and other places.

Brynn: Okay.

Fred: So the problem we have is that our electricity supply, because of the protracted drought in the West and the Midwest, is steadily dropping. In other words, the hydropower plants are not generating as much as they once did, but the demand continues to increase even beyond the data centers.

So all of a sudden, this project, if it goes ahead, is going to be competing with us on what they call the spot market, which is, you're not buying a contract into a long-term future, you're buying it for the next couple of days or the week to fulfill your power needs and keep the grid stable and so that it doesn't crash.

Brynn: And that's on all three counts, because Silver State Energy, we'd be competing on that. Skylar, if you go on Boulder City's if you just Google, just Google the phrase, "Where does Boulder City get their energy from?" you'll be directed to one of bcnv.org's pages, which is, One called, Power Source.

We actually get some of our power right now, I think this month, from Townsite Solar. So I-

Minimal, though, total demand.

Brynn: It's not a tiny amount. But it goes up and down per month because- the Hoover Dam does better and worse in certain months, and then,it's a bar chart per month.

So take a look at that. Google it, get to that page. I know we can't provide visuals here, but

Jill: No, but I can provide links. If you wanna send me that link 

Brynn: Okay 

Jill: We'll put it in the show notes.

Brynn: I'll send you the link, yeah. Yeah. And they, it seems to be a current link. like I think in the month of April we got none from them.

In May we do get a bunch from them. I think the contract is we can get up to five megawatts per month from them. I'll look at,

Fred: I'll find that and the city signed a contract and with a solar farm in Pinal County, Arizona.

Brynn: Yeah.

Fred: But it's only gonna be 1%, a little bit over 1% of the production so that's not gonna help us.

Brynn: And then when they say particularly other entities, and Rick Lamers said, "I'm..." And I asked, "Why don't you just take that language off and add those seven to eight companies you j- just rattled off?" To me he said, "I'd rather keep my options open." So that's not very comforting, that states, "I'll just do exactly that, keep my options open."

So I have no faith that we wouldn't be competing with them on the open market, and the same thing that you've read about happening in small towns across America doesn't happen here, that we end up seeing our utility rates, which are really low compared to anywhere else, end up skyrocketing.

And we already have that ordinance in place from, summer I think of 2024, stating our rates here can only go up but never down. So we're already locked into that,

Kendra: And I would have I think there's a couple things for people to keep in mind, 'cause I asked this question of them and they said, we'll get it and we won't be competing.

But it will be competing. And if you think about it, they are gonna buy 300 megawatts. Our town, on a daily basis peak of summer, buys 55. Who do you think is gonna get the better rate, and who do you think the companies are going to choose to sell their energy for, to? The 300 megawatt or the 55?

And I think that they will get the better price. And so I think this- Of course is something to concern about. And as we also know, Nevada, we have terrible summers. So my concern is always gonna go back to the people. there are a lot of people here on a fixed income, and if our utility rates go up, are we gonna have people, retirees, who are gonna make the choice between running their AC all day or because they can't afford a power bill anymore?

Are they gonna say, we can push the dial up to 82 degrees. We'll be okay if it's 82"? And then, July hits, and maybe they couldn't afford the last month's power bill. Will they push it up to 85? What will we be doing to the people in our town- ... who are on fixed income? And that's a lot of our town, who- maybe can't afford these huge jumps or potential jumps in energycosts. And you know, they might say, "Well, this year you'll be fine." But what about five years down the road?

What if the lake continues to have less water? What will happen then? And so I'm just really concerned for... And I think we always need to go back to Boulder City is a community because of the people in it, and I think the people deserve to have their voice, and the people, we need to make decisions that protect the people. We can figure out budget things, but I don't ever wanna make a choice that could harm a person.

Brynn: And it seems to be an especially bad time with all the news that's come down the line about the Colorado River, the shortages Oh, yeah. I think Colorado that we'll have to be taking got no

Kendra: Snow hardly this year.

Brynn: Yeah. And just in the last week, the shortages that we may have to be taking

Fred: And Lake Mead continues to decline. Yeah. But another interesting point in the contract that Boulder City has with the Bureau of Reclamation for Glen Canyon and Hoover Dam is that whether they give us all the electricity we need or just a small part of it or zero, Boulder City rate payers are still on the hook to pay for operations and maintenance expense of both of those dams.

Brynn: Right.

Fred: That is part of the agreement we have with the federal government. So not only are we paying those expenses, but if we have to buy power because it's not available any longer on the open market, we're gonna be paying for that as well.

Jill: And so don't we lock in rates someplace?

Fred: We get a very good wholesale rate from those two places, but the thing is, if they can't produce any electricity because there's not enough water to do so we are still, in Boulder City- I see ... responsible to pay for the cost of keeping those two dams operating. Even if they're in mothballs, there's still expense.

So we'll be paying for that, and then we have to pay to buy it and bring it here on the open market, which And then that won't be at nearly the favorable rates we receive now.

Jill: And we share those costs with other purchase agree, purchasers.

Fred: Whoever, It could be Page, Arizona buying electricity from them, any number of other communities.

Jill: So they too are in the same predicament

Fred: Yes

Jill: that we are.

Fred: Most definitely. And it's not looking good from the forecasting center about the water supply.

Fact is, for Glen Canyon, the federal government announced they're gonna lease, release 500,000 acre feet of water from upper basin dams in Wyoming, Colorado, and Utah, and the plan is that's going to allow Glen Canyon to keep producing electricity for the short term.

Jill: Right.

Fred: It will do nothing to help Lake Mead because we won't be getting any extra water. In fact, Lake Mead will continue to decline. Go down. And it could be that we can't put any water. We might still have water here in Boulder City in Las Vegas, but we not, may not be able to put any water downstream Downriver for Mexico, Arizona, California, and water rights have nothing to do with it.

Jill: Yeah. 

Fred: There's just no... There won't be any water. 

Jill: Then there also won't be any power. 

Fred: That's correct. Yeah.

Jill: Yeah,

Brynn: Interesting. I have a really good interview. I don't know if you saw the one. there's a interview that came out with the executive director of the Glen Canyon Institute. I'll send that for your notes as well.

Jill: Okay , yeah. Interesting.

Brynn: That was a really good one.

Jill: I so appreciate your guys' information and being willing to come and visit with us, and I would imagine there's probably so many more little pieces and nuggets that we've probably forgotten about because there's been so much discussion. But, and so please share that with me.

I'm happy to put that in the show notes. But I would love for each of us to kinda take just a minute and share a few more things. I think, things will pop into each of our heads as you're summing it all up, so that we can know a little bit more about where we're going

Kendra: Yeah.

So I think that at the end of the day, for me at least, as a person who chose to live here, who-- as a person who experienced what the bad of what happens, when a corporation doesn't do their job and when it lies to the people and when it puts the profits before the people, I just-- I am concerned for our community.

I have children here, and I want them to grow up here and to experience the beauty of our community and to, and, enjoy the parades and enjoy the parks. And as I read and as I do research, there are just too many questions. this is not a company with a long track record in this. We can't go and see the last ten facilities they've built and say, "Yes, they've done a great job.

They have a wonderful reputation." We can't do this because they don't have any open at this point. We don't know if they will keep their promises. We don't know if they know how to manage what is very dangerous wastewater that is part of their AC systems. We don't know the environmental impacts because they just haven't been studied.

We've not had three hundred megawatt data centers around for ten or twenty years. so I think there's just too many questions, and I, for one , am not willing to gamble the health and the safety of my children or of really anybody in this community. And so I think that it's reasonable for the city to demand an environmental impact study.

I think it's reasonable for the city to delay the yes vote on this till November. Let us have our voice. I think we deserve it. And we put them, when we put them in office, we expected they would listen to us, and it feels like right now that they're not. So my request would be that I want this to be a beautiful community, and I feel like we're gambling with that right now.

Jill: Thank you. Very well said.

Brynn: With regard to their water, This applicant, I've studied all of their proposals, and actually I went back to study their December ninth proposal, which was actually when they were applying as a BESS battery energy storage

Jill: Okay

Brynn: facility, and they were trying to extend their lease.

This was in December. they were going to expire at the end of twenty twenty-five. They needed an extension. They mentioned nothing about data centers then. I was sitting in the audience of that city council meeting thinking nothing of it. So it really surprised me when in March of twenty twenty-six, I see the same company, same site on the agenda.

So that just triggers me to pick apart every part of their application. And the first thing I'd seen about, the first mistake I'd seen in their application, and sorry to go back to energy, but it was a huge mistake in their energy calculations. It was off to a factor of a thousand in their favor, which would have actually made them a pretty small data center.

And now I realized, is that real? because that makes it actually a massive facility. It was real. I confirmed with the deputy city manager So you would think now on this planning commission agenda, they would have double, triple, quadruple checked it. No, there are three different places where it states three different cooling methods, two of which they were told by the SNWA and presumably the city, "No, those are banned.

You can't use evaporative cooling here." It was banned in twenty twenty-four. It's still stated twice in the application packet. So it really just makes this company lose all sorts of credibility with me, and, when they also state things... I had written them back in late March. I got a response in early April from their attorneys asking where is the environmental impact assessment.

They said, "We haven't ordered one. We'll only get one if the city requires it of us." I have not seen one yet. I don't know if the city has asked for one, behind closed doors that hasn't been public. But as far as I know, one has not been requested, one's not been done. I went out to the desert where our treated wastewater goes, to take photos and videos of that area.

Which is where they do state in their application packet their sewage water from the chemicals that are in their closed loop system, they state will go back to the city's sewer system.

Jill: The effluent runoff, yeah.

Brynn: Yeah. And which will go back through that, wastewater treatment plant that was built in the mid-'60s and would go out to that riparian environment, which is in, which flows through our conservation easement area.

So to say we're not doing an environmental impact assessment is I don't know, I don't have the words for it but,

Jill: Not responsible

Fred: Disingenuous is the word, I'd say. 

Brynn: Yeah. and the fact that our council would, who live here, and this is their community, they're asking to build in our community, and hopefully want to invest in our community.

And the fact that our council isn't requiring that of them, yeah, you said it, Jill. 

Fred: It's dereliction of duty on the council's part it is really

Brynn: Yeah

Fred: on that subject.

Brynn: So I'm really upset with that, and I've picked apart every bit of their, application, and I would just hope they'd be a lot more honest.

Or if that's not the right term, accurate, and at least had gone through it line by line to make sure they had been accurate in every one of their statements, which it's one or the other, but they've not been. So I'm disappointed there,

Fred: The proposal has really focused on glittering generalities without getting down to the nitty-gritty of how they're going to deal with the wastewater, specifically what technology are they going to use.

The proposal has shifted as the various iterations of the proposal have been issued to the public- It's pivoted and the city council. And it's very hit using your and miss and seat of the pants.

Yeah. And we don't know about the water. Originally, they were going to take the wastewater from our wastewater treatment plant as a coolant.

Then they decided, no, we're not gonna do that. We're gonna do... use this closed loop system, which sounds good. They have to populate it with 400,000 gallons initially, but then they're not saying, wait a minute, what about evaporation? We only have to draw down 2,000 gallons a year to make this, pure enough to use," because they have a long list, which I'll give you a copy of, Jill, and you can post, of all the thing all the chemicals they have to add to that water. Rust inhibitors, propylene glycol, which you would use in your car radiator. It's a litany of things. And chemicals, as most of us know, when they are you combine things, it makes compounds that are not necessarily the best in the world. It may not be Love Canal, but it, it could be, Interesting, pretty toxic. And they're gonna have to take a lot more than 2,000 gallons out of that system over a year's time, which is what they're claiming, to keep that water pure enough to use for the cooling process.

So I don't think they're being accurate about that at all.

They're trying to minimize That particular phase of it, there's been talk about a water line going out there that the proponents wanna put in to for fire suppression because our fire chief is insisting on it, and for their kitchen and bathroom facilities.

Jill: Okay.

Fred: There's been talk about putting in water tanks and hauling it in from some place.

they claim they'll only use a couple thousand gallons a day. depends on how many employees they have and what they're doing there. So we've been getting a lot of conflicting information, and there really hasn't been a detailed proposal presented, at least to the public, about what they're gonna do in all of these areas with real specifics.

It's very broad brush, it's very generalized, and, it does not build confidence in the community that these people know what they're doing and will carry through on what they say they're gonna do. We really need performance bonds in case this company was to financially go out of business

Jill: Oh, I never thought about that Absolutely

Fred: or unable to handle the environmental cleanup if there was a problem. And I think we need some certainty about what are they gonna do to remediate this chemical brew that they have created in the closed loop system.

Jill: Do we have performance bonds for the other solar leases?

Fred: Because they're just running a solar farm, and there's really, there's no technology, there are no moving parts, if you will.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a very different type of business than a data center, I would submit.

Brynn: I had a couple other things there. Maybe these are to interject in other parts.

Jill: Go for it.

Brynn: One of the things they did state at, I think, their last town hall when they had the posters up, I noticed they used really cagey language, and I think it's on their data center's website, too.

I was just trying to look it up. I didn't find it. But they used language like, I know, it's all right. they say things... Instead of stating something like- residents' energy rates will not go up. They use the language of, "Our goal is to not have residents' energy rates go up." And I'm sorry, but just looking at it from a legal standpoint, if I was an attorney, I would word it the exact same way if I couldn't promise that.

And they use that language on every single one of their posters. They don't make any concrete promises. They make vague, "We'll try our best, but we're not going to actually state that in stone.”

Fred: And we're not tying into the city grid. 

Brynn: Yeah. 

Fred: That is the other claim they make. "So you're not gonna be impacted, Boulder City." That's not true.

Jill: And that not tying into the grid is, the reason they're stating that is so that it doesn't sound like they'll take our power?

Fred: Well, our grid couldn't handle that.

Jill: Oh,

Brynn: Yeah.

Fred: For one thing. Their infrastructure. We don't have the capacity. 

Brynn: They're different.

Fred: They would have to do all sorts of extra build-outs, and it would take years.

So they decided to go direct to the Mead substation which is east of the airport and the veteran's cemetery out in the desert and made this agreement with SNWA. But they are going to be competing on the wholesale power market with Boulder City. So that really doesn't matter that they've done that, and they spent $5.5 million to do that with SNWA back in February.

So they're pretty sure they're gonna get approval, or they wouldn't have spent that kind of money- That's a lot of money to make the power connection happen.

Jill: A lot of money already expended.

Fred: It, there is.

Brynn: Did you ever find out, Fred? And I pulled public records requests from the SNWA, and they said not available, but, if you remember three years ago, our city council had sat down with the SNWA.

They'd come to a council meeting. This was one of the last town halls we had, was on the wastewater

Jill: Oh, yeah

Brynn: Three years 

Kendra: reclamation 

Brynn: and how to handle it.

Jill: Reclamation.

Brynn: They had picked items two and three or options two and three, which were to either return to Lake Mead- ... or upgrade the treatment plant and reuse locally, either way regard, was to upgrade the treatment plant.

Fred: Right, and not send it to Henderson.

Jill: not pipe it back the 

Brynn: opposite way.

Jill: Yeah.

Brynn: This was 2023, and they said it'll take us a year to get back the cost and feasibility study, and the SNWA was going to give us a $26 million grant for this. Dina Titus just secured another almost million dollars.

That, report is now two years overdue. We've not heard a thing.

Fred: And there's a state law that says that if the report is in draft format between Boulder City and SNWA, they are not obligated to release it to the public until it is finalized.

So it's in no man's land. The last I heard, it's still in draft form.

Nothing's been done. Anecdotally, the community was told that, the cost of doing any of these three options is so prohibitive to Boulder City, we're not gonna go ahead with it even if we get this money from SNWA.

Brynn: I was told that by one council member almost a year ago.

 But the utility advisory committee has it on a standing agenda item 

Fred: They are not receiving it either to ask for it. 

Brynn: They don't have it. Yeah.  So Shouldn't we have that information prior to

Fred: Well making any It would be nice, but I think that's a sort of a separate discussion 

from the data centers.

Brynn: Considering they're talking about using up to three-quarters of the effluent in their

Fred: but that seems to be project floating, That, that's not a sure thing because Yeah now they're talking about this closed loop cooling system 

Brynn: Yeah 

Fred: Which would not use the water from the wastewater plant.

Brynn: It depends on which page.

Other than the initial 400,000

Fred: And they haven't really been specific about where that will come from.

Oh. So it could be potable water, it could be raw water.

Jill: Oh.

Fred: I would think, from a layperson standpoint, using partially treated wastewater would pose a real problem to them when they put all these other chemicals in it, along with the chemicals that are already in it from all of our waste. And, you know

Jill: It's sounding like a witch's brew out there.

Fred: I know. Really, can it be remediated? I don't think, Moses or God would know this.

Jill: And how much are those bonds that you're asking about?

Fred: I think the level just ratcheted up a little bit, Jill.

Brynn: Yeah. And, one of my other problems with this current agenda that just came out- they said, "We pivoted. We're not going to use the effluent." But then if they're not using that, they did also state in the current, the cooling section, energy will increase by 20 to 25%, while their energy on the energy section does not increase, their numbers don't increase, and they had said to me, if that happens, then your revenue is going to go down."

The revenue section also does not go down. In fact, I think it goes up on this one compared to the March 24th meeting. So where... The numbers have to change somewhere in there. And they have not. And they've not. So I'm just wondering about the credibility of this application packet that the planning commission's going to be reviewing tonight.

Fred: I have concerns about it because I don't think they have nailed down a whole bunch of things.

Brynn: Yeah.

Fred: The write-up that they did for March 24th to the council is basically the same format they're using tonight.

And they've tweaked a few things, but nothing of a material nature, certainly in relationship to, they haven't addressed the power sourcing issue, and they haven't addressed how good are they going to be at treating this wastewater they're gonna create.

And how much of it is there going to be? How frequently is it gonna be generated? They've talked about none of these things.

Jill: So I feel like we've enlightened people with a lot of concerns And some of the solutions being, hold off or let's keep researching or, and I don't know, I don't know if that's gonna solve anything.

But what could be a solution? If they were to show up today and said, "We'll do XYZ because we saw that you made these great requests and it was important," what could XYZ be for this to be a solid opportunity? is there any reason why it could ever be a solid opportunity? what could they do to fix it so that it, we could look at this from a different perspective?

Fred: Well, a performance bond definitely for both the, any pollution and any remediation, and it would have to be sizable. but I think, Jill, when you get down to it, do they really wanna come to a community that doesn't want them? it's like good question getting married to somebody who hates you.

Do you really wanna do that? is that really smart? Do you wanna have children with that person? and the answer's probably no to that. So I think they have to say to themselves, "Does Boulder City really want us on any basis?" And again, from the anecdotal information we've all been privy to, the answer's a resounding no.

So I would say maybe they should direct their efforts to another community that really wants this and thinks it's great, and more power to them. Maybe they have the electricity, maybe they have the water to do the evaporative cooling we can't do in Southern Nevada. but, everything I've seen, I have, like Bryn, grave concerns about these particular operators.

I've talked to them, I've asked them a number of questions, and I feel like I'm in the Bermuda Triangle in getting really solid answers. And I've looked at the company websites to see who's behind it and what they do in the rest of their business, and it just does not give me a good feel. I don't think it's a good fit for a very small, close-knit town like Boulder City.

And we have other solutions if we truly have a financial problem that we can employ. This is not the only solution, otherwise we're gonna suddenly evaporate and dry up and go away as a town. That's not gonna happen. Boulder City's been here going on 100 years. It'll probably be here another 100 years and thriving.

Brynn: Absolutely.

Jill: I appreciate your information, and, thank you, Bryn, for helping us kinda organize this. Did you guys have any final thoughts, anything else you'd to share or leave with us so that we make sure we have accurate information?

Fred: Let's go slow and be cautious and deliberate

and include the public in 

Brynn: Yeah 

Fred: this whole discussion. There is no reason to try and fast-track this. It's a big decision.

Brynn: Yeah. I agree. I'll echo what Fred said with also a comment that I made in the last city council meeting's public comment, that everybody's heard, people have it, framed on their desks,

lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine, and that's just exactly what this feels like. I know that there's a supply and demand issue countrywide. That does not mean we have to get on board. I'm also absolutely not anti-technology.

I am all for advancing technology.

I do feel like this will be a lot better in several years. I And I could be wrong, but I feel like we'll have much better technology. We'll have I mean if you look at chips, remember what chips looked like. Remember the floppy disks of the '90s?

Jill: Oh, yeah.

Brynn: I think we'll have much better technology in several years, and it could be something that we explore then. I do not think we have to jump on board of the latest trend just because everybody else is doing it, because everybody else regrets it. And that's where I stand on it. I'll just state, I moved to this town almost five years ago, and a month after I moved here, we declared the first ever historically tier one drought on the Colorado River.

Somebody approached me and said, "Oh, you need to meet Professor George Reed." So that's how I got hooked up with these troublemakers. And 

Jill: Highly educated

Brynn: Yeah. Yeah. Highly educated troublemakers. They've taught me a ton since, and one being that really, we really need to protect our resources here. We need to focus on conservation.

And my ask to, hopefully our city council listens to this, it is that we need to have a water conservation town hall. It's that we need to have more town halls in general, where they listen to their constituents, where they get ideas from their constituents. We have our population here, they're a bunch of smart people.

We have a ton of ideas. They can source ideas from us, and they've even got that capital improvement, suggestion box online. And I think they've taken a number of ideas from there. So that would be my one ask of them. Don't race into this. Ask your constituents. Sit down with them regularly.

When I lived in El Paso, during COVID, they had monthly town halls with, one, their residents, and two, they had a veterans town hall 

Jill: Okay

Brynn: Every single month, and this was during COVID. They still managed to do that. So that would be my ask of them. Listen to your constituents, and recognize that we're in a drought that has been going on for so long and is so severe, it's now considered a ratification.

So maybe we should be actually looking at the problems we have here locally- A small budget shortfall is not a problem that we need to solve with data centers. There are other ways to do it. we have two, and we've authored three citizens initiative ballot questions. Two of them deal with fiscal responsibility and ways that we could tighten our belts here.

If anybody has questions about those, they can seek us out, and I'll provide you with that information too. We need 1,700 signatures on each of them by June 25th. And,

Fred: We are we're out there collecting signatures from the public, and they're very happy- Yeah ... to sign.

Brynn: Yeah.

Fred: So we have every well expectation we're gonna meet the requirement.

Brynn: Yeah.

Jill: People need to realize that is, using their voice.

Brynn: Yeah.

Jill: Sometimes they feel like they don't have control of some of the things that are happening, but that is exactly how you express it, is making sure that you're staying informed.

Attend some meetings. I just, there's a public meeting for a purpose. And I realize there's a lot of people that are watching online, so we can't really see-

Brynn: Yeah 

Jill: the impacts, as we can when they're in person. But there really are some good options for people to express themselves, to educate themselves, to stay informed, be a part of the community.

I really appreciate you guys coming on, sharing this information, because I do think Boulder City's always been considered the poster child for conservation and doing things right with the controlled growth and being very thoughtful in the things that we're doing. So we wanna keep that track record.

Brynn: Yeah. 

Jill: And so I wanna make sure that people are doing things for the right reasons and with the right purpose behind it- Yeah ... with also the right information, the knowledge, and at a timeline and a pace that is comfortable for everybody as well. So thank you guys so much for being on the show. There'll be lots of more information in the show notes.

If we have the opportunity to, do other interviews with people who have different thoughts, different opinions, I am more than happy to make sure that we interview them as well so that everybody can have their voice heard. And, so thank you guys. I appreciate you.

Brynn: Thank you. 

Fred: Thank you for having us.

Thanks for having us.